‘Wilson ya wanker!’ is a statement that has been bandied around
Northern England for thirty years now. The Wilson in question, the
original media facilitator Anthony H.Wilson, is a self-proclaimed
wanker, but he don’t care. One of the most important record label bosses
to grace the history of rock and roll, his story has been told on
countless occasions. From regional television news presenter where he
sported a punk-green streaked barnet, via his discovery of Joy
Division, the Hacienda nightclub, New Order through to acid house and
Happy Mondays, Wilson’s been a powerful catalyst within many great
pop-cultural moments in the last 25 years. He’s been part of a story
that’s involved the birth of post-punk, suicide, insanity, liquidation,
narcotic excess and converting football thugs to the rebellious French
thought of Situationism and dancing. By creating Factory records on
Palatine Road, Manchester in the late 1970s, signing bands he saw and
thought were important to the progress of rock and roll, he’s always
promoted an unequalled passion and energy for music, culture, the
dynamic city of Manchester and British youth culture. He may be a bit of
a wanker, but he’s also played a part in changing modern music forever.
Way back in 1978 at the Russell Club in Moss Side/Hulme, Wilson organised a
spectacle where Joy Division and Cabaret Voltaire shaped the sound of
post-punk. Ever since he’s been a magnet for creative expression, with a
truly survivalist instinct, gusto and resolute desire to find the next
important thing. Fast forward nearly thirty years and a new band have
been found with an even newer sound of British hip-hop in the form of
Raw-T. Signed to the latest instalment of his mythical record label
Factory Records, now entitled F4,
the Mancunian collective have the element of danger and experimentation
that has always attracted Wilson. Listening to their debut album one is
confronted by deep digital shuffles, slick raps that talk of a British
urban way of life that is sometimes tragic, always real and other times
amusing. The point is that Wilson has found another gem and he’s not
resting on the laurels of his glory years; the man of passion is still
searching and using his media clout to highlight what he feels to be
important to music and life. Great rock and fucking roll kids!
Asking Tony Wilson a question is easy, extracting information even
easier. Ask him something as simple as the time and you’d receive a
cultural pontification about the lines of the Meridian and the way it
effects the Northern psyche. Respectively finding himself lost in
Swindon and taking his nutcase New Order dog for a walk on the two
occasions we spoke, he was distracted many times during the
conversation. But due to the sharp thinking of the man, he managed to
keep a solid thread through out and spouted long, detailed soliloquies
about his iconic past, his hip-hop present and things that’ll kick off
in the future.
What do you say to people that shout “Wilson you wanker!”?
I just keep walking and have always ignored it. Funnily enough I’ve
got to go to Chorlton in about an hour, because Harry Goodwin the
original rock and roll photographer of the Sixties has a show which he
asked me to go to. But Chorlton I despise with a passion. I come from
Salford, then lived in Marple, went to school in Salford, went to
university when I was 18, went to London when I was 21 and aged 23 came
back home. I’m on television as a local reporter and putting music on
television, just soundtracks really. I thought my generation will love
this, we children of the Sixties, but who in the early Seventies were
all solicitors, young teachers and trainee accountants in Chorlton and
it turned out they utterly despised me. Just like all those people who
shout “wanker”.
I remember going to a Rory Gallagher gig in 1975 at the Free Trade
Hall and there was two thousand people and one thousand one hundred and
ninety-nine people fucking hated me. And I just thought ‘What the fuck
have I done to these fuckin people? What shits they are.’ And then about
a year and a half later along came punk and suddenly I’m at The Circus
and all these kids are like ‘Hey Tone, thanks for putting Costello on,
thanks for putting Iggy Pop on.’ I realised I found my generation and
they weren’t my fucking generation. So people shouting abuse has
happened for a very long time and I find it kind of amusing and
irrelevant.
What sort of bands are you looking for to add to the F4 roster?
A band that’s going to sell a lot of records because they’re
important. The most innovative is always the most commercial at the end.
The Mondays did sell a lot of albums, they sold a couple of million
albums which I think is reasonably good, but if they hadn’t had the
self-destruction they might of sold some more.
What made you want to start a new label?
I’d never really stopped I suppose. I had a two year layoff between
the bankruptcy which led to London Records buying Factory, that awful
period of Factory Too ended and I had to walk away, and when I finally
got tired of the Space Monkeys we stopped again. It was always a
question of the next time we sign a good band we’ll start again. We
started again with King Rib and they found a wonderful lead singer, but
they became Simian which are not my cup of tea. I went to see The Music
in Leeds: I was taken out by their manager and fell in love with them
and I spent six months arranging the new label around The Music, and at
the last minute their two managers who were friends of mine brought a
third manager in who was a complete twat, he wanted a bidding war and in
the end signed for lots of money to Hut. It was very depressing and I
was outraged for about two years. [The Music weren't that good though
Tony]. No, The Music were that good and they had that potential, but the
way their managers took them was completely fucking wrong and ended up
taking them nowhere. If we’d have put them in the right environment then
they’d have created a far more important second album. So the wrong
environment has just fucked them. In fact I heard someone within their
camp say that to some one the other week, so yes that’s what I think
about them.
And as I say it’s never stopped, it’s always if I ever see a great
band.When I saw Raw-T live at In The City I was blown away, there were
several major labels there who were also blown away. I presumed that my
job with Raw-T would be to bash them around the head when they started
behaving like twats, and instead the majors all offered them crap
singles deals, no one offered them a real album deal and suddenly the
rest is history.
Who’s designing the imagery for F4?
I have a graphic designer who I’m very fond of called Jason Nichols
who does In The City’s stuff and in it’s great having him move on from
that to do the record sleeves. He did the F4 thing and I’m very happy
with that. We were originally going to be called Red Cellars and there
was a very clever designer called John Walsh designed a Red Cellars logo
and was doing the whole thing. I took him to meet Raw-T and he met them
and experienced them and got a logo from one of their boys, took it
away to work on and a month later had been too busy to do it because he
had more important work on. To which after a few days I exploded in a
very unpleasant manner and said, ‘Fine, the most important thing in the
fucking world is Raw-T so you can fuck off!’
Strangely the reason it’s not called Red Cellars is not just that my
partner thinks it’s a good idea cos it relates to Factory and it avoids a
fifteen minute explanation of why it’s called Red Cellars. But it was
when I was lying in my bunk in the Amazon rainforest doing drugs, the
very night Raw-T’s first single had to go to press, and I thought if I
call it Red Cellars I’m going to have to use John’s logo and I’m so
angry at John for being too busy to do Raw-T, and so utterly outraged I
refused to use his logo. So I needed to think up a new name, and finally
thought F4. That was out of a fit of anger at one of Manchester’s best
designers for having been too busy to do Raw-T. I always say to people
that the portrayal of me by Coogan as an affable fool is very sweet but
in fact my daughter who is next to me will testify, I’m a truly horrible
person. And you have to be to get things done.
Would you ever start a new nightclub again?
Yes I would but it’d be very difficult. I’d love to have somewhere
like The Castle in Oldham where Raw-T go and play, it’s like a cross
between an Oldham pub and 8Mile by Eminem. I’d love something like that,
but then again that’s a fucking nightmare anyway, so maybe not. I’d
love to do that personally but I can’t imagine it happening, I now have
so many other little jobs in my life and it gets complicated but who
knows maybe one day.
What band in musical history do you wish you could have signed?
Everyone wishes they could have signed their own Velvet Underground;
that’s the history of the interesting side of rock and roll. We all
would have liked to have our own Velvet Underground and that’s about it
really. I got Joy Division, I got the Mondays and now I’ve got Raw-T and
I wouldn’t complain for one moment.
What were you talking about when you mentioned that music culture was based around 13 year revolutionary cycles?
I used to think that there was a thirteen year cycle, but then the
revolution I expected in 2002 didn’t happen. I always think that what
happens is that English kids absorb American rock and roll and
regurgitate it with English irony and sell it back to them. But this
time it didn’t happen, it was Welsh kids, one could argue that Lost
Prophets and Funeral For A Friend were in some way that kinda thing I
was hoping for, but it didn’t happen so I’m quite happy to accept that.
But at the moment I’m very lucky to be involved with Raw-T who are
following in the footsteps of Dizzee Rascal, Wylie and Mike Skinner, in
that British hip-hop has found its own voice which is a pretty peculiar
thing to happen. I got accused on The Culture Show of jumping on a band
wagon that was already happening, this was from Q magazine or N.M.E.
Whereas the guy from Hip-Hop Connection was fantastic, as in someone who
actually knew what he was talking about. It hasn’t really happened yet,
it’s just beginning I think.
How important has Situationism been to you?
I was just a fan having been introduced to it by my acid dealer who happened to be the main translator of The Revolution Of Everyday Life
by Raoul Vaneigem in Britain. I was a fan and therefore referred to it a
lot in terms of naming things and various bits and pieces. Although
when you look back on it in the end I think the way we did it, by, as
Peter Saville once said, in the entire fourteen years of Factory not one
decision was ever taken, EVER with an eye to profit. And that was
entirely true actually! So in some way we behaved properly. There was a
contract and the contract said we own nothing, the musicians own
everything, That was a mistake, but it was very nice at the time and
very idealistic, but looking back on it fuck the musicians I say.
We actually I’d say, were responsible for removing the world’s greatest rock and roll writer for about fifteen years, which is Greil Marcus,
from rock’n'roll. He got a copy of our first record and stuck a Durutti
Column sticker on his deck and looked at it for two years thinking
“What the fuck is this?’, and finally discovered it was a Strasbourg
(Andre Bertrand) political cartoon at the end of which he got completely
involved in it and became buried in it and became the world expert on
Situationism. Which is bit of a shame because it took him away from
writing until he wrote his Elvis Presley/Bill Clinton book which I adore
that he really came back to the fold. The greatest book on rock and
roll is Mystery Train by Greil Marcus by a million miles.
What’s your involvement in the upcoming Joy Division film?
I’m a producer on the movie and in a way I think that’s because it
makes it more official having me involved, (stupidly) and it does
reflect to a degree what was their concern about the rival film. The
rival film has now completely fucking gone, thank god. There’s always
only been one project, the film which is based on Debbie Curtis’s book (Touching From A Distance)
and that always been how it’s approached. The people making the film
are two American guys; there was an American man and woman from New York
that were making the film called Double A Films, however they fell out
and also the woman fell out with Debbie Curtis. An option on a book has
to be renewed, and they didn’t renew the option otherwise they’d be
still be making the film, but I presume they kept promising Debbie they
were renewing it. Some of these Americans have so much money they don’t
know what it’s like for us over here. No money was paid, the option
ceased at which point these two guys Todd Eckert and Orian Williams, who
had been friends from school years decided to step in and take up the
option. Todd is a Pittsburgh guy, and Orian works out of Los Angeles, so
it’s a Pittsburgh/Los Angeles pairing that are doing this. They had
actually talked to Sophia Coppola who is a Joy Division fan, there was
interest from her, but in the end they chose Anton Corbijn which I think
is a great idea.
So their choice of Anton mirrored my own choice because I realised
that when I had to make a video for Atmosphere in 1988 I would have to
use the old photographs, and therefore it seemed logical to use either
Kevin Cummins or Anton. There was only two photographers who took the
great photographs of Ian and for whatever reason I chose Anton even
though I’ve just recently done a photo shoot with the beloved Mr
Cummins, who moaned at me. He said ‘If I do a photoshoot for you, will
you stop bad mouthing me? At the press conference for the Ian Curtis
film you were bad mouthing me.’ I said ‘I wasn’t bad mouthing you. I
said you’re a miserable twat Kevin. You are a miserable fuckin twat.’ To
which he laughed and accepted it, because he is totally a miserable
twat.
Anton’s lovely, and I’ve met Anton a few times and obviously he did
that video, and the strange thing about that video is, Greton hated it
and told me the whole fucking group hated it. For 15 years I was under
the impression that the group hated it, but it turned out the group
loved it, only Rob fuckin hated it. So if they hadn’t have brought Anton
in to do this I’d have never have found that out. It’s my double
revenge on Rob really. "Atmosphere"’s a perfect video, but you can see
where Rob comes from, who though it was over-egging the legend of
blah-blah-blah. Fuck that anyway, to me anyone else touching it who
wasn’t there at the time, it would have been immoral. Whereas because
Anton had taken the photographs, he was fucking around with his own
pictures and to me there was always going to be integrity. So now
choosing Anton for the film is a great great move. And secondly choosing
writer Matt Greenhalgh (Burn It) who is number three in the
Red Productions school of rock and roll, the top T.V. drama company in
Britain. Its number one writer is Russell T. Davies (Dr Who), number two writer is Paul Abbot (Shameless),
number three writer is Matt Greenhalgh. So as far as I’m concerned at
the moment these two American boys have done a fantastic job of choosing
the right director and writer. Obviously the casting will be something
of an issue, but I have nothing to do with it.
I did recommend one actor who could play the part he played in 24 Hour Party People,
he could play me, he could play Ian, he could play Martin, he could
play anybody in this film and I was with him the other night when he won
best actor at The Empire Awards. He’s Britain’s best actor he’s called
Paddy Considine who played Rob in the film. I kept going to London going
“Fuckin hell man, there’s a guy playing Rob!’, and they’d go ‘Didn’t
you know that John Simm is the second best young actor in Britain?’ As
in everybody who works in movies knows that Paddy Considine is the best
actor in Britain. His first film that made him famous was Romeo Brass,
obviously he was amazing as Gretton. My only input on actors is that
Paddy could play anybody.
Martin Hannett; tell me about his genius.
I could talk about Martin Hannett for days so don’t start me. What’s
very strange I think is that most great producers go mad because they
only ever find one sound. Whereas groups can find two or three sounds in
their career and go through various changes. William! Sorry beg your
pardon. William! [Interlude of Tony sorting out his puppy that is trying to play with another dog. Sounds of apologies to another dog owner]-
Every interview I do these days is interspersed with this. You stupid
dog!! He’s a "Blue Monday" dog. The dog from the New Order video. I have
no time for dogs whatsoever, but my partner knew that many years ago I
worked with Bill Wegman on the Blue Monday ’88 video and fell in love
with Wegman and his Weimaraner dog.
Last November my partner said two things: Number one you should sign
Raw-T, number two I’m buying you a dog for Christmas. They are obviously
the most beautiful dogs in the world, but no one told me that in the
dog world they are famous for being the most loopy, fucking stupid
off-their-head nutcases, so I’ve got this complete idiot dog now! He’s
actually had the snip but that would never calm him down, and has got me
in a lot of trouble with Peter Saville because his girlfriend used to
think she was a wolf when she was a teenager, loves dogs and wolves, and
I got into a lot of trouble from Peter for having giving William the
snip and it’s made no fucking difference whatsoever.
Back to Hannett. All producers go mad because they normally only find
one sound in their life. In fact Martin Hannett found two sounds, and
he even came back a third time when he was just having a laugh with the
Mondays, so I think he did pretty fucking well. If you want to go
through the history of Martin very simply. The early phase where he was
learning about the studio with Manchester Animation company, which he
did the soundtrack for. Then he pioneered punk with "Spiral Scratch" and
"Cranked Up Really High" [Buzzcocks]. Then unbeknown to me until I
found out years later, he goes and meets these guys in a carpark on the
moors above Burnley and tells them the sound he’s imagining in his head,
off his head on fucking drugs and he drives back to Manchester at
midnight, they drive back to their shed in Burnley and they build the
world’s first digital delay machine, the AMF digital delay which is the
most important outboard equipment of the last fifty years. And it was
fifteen years later when some guy stopped me and said, ‘I want to thank
you, one of your partners changed my life.’ When I realised it was AMF I
went ‘No, you changed his life by giving him that equipment.’ He said,
‘Don’t you know where it came from?’ And I had no idea it came out of
Martin’s head. The first time he ever worked with that Digital delay
machine was on the song Digital. And that was on the Factory Sample, his
first day with Joy Division. And then of course he used it on Unknown
Pleasures and it changed the way drums sound forever, he used it on ESG
and everything else. So the first thing is he changed the drum sound of
the world forever by the Digital Delay.
But then what he’s not given credit for, because "Blue Monday" is
given the credit for being the first great modern music track which uses
computers. In fact although I would never try and cross Bernard because
he’s extremely clever, (well New Order got the credit), but if you look
at Bernard’s production of Marcel King at the same time, and the 52nd
Street band, Section 25 then it’s obviously Bernard who was doing that.
But Bernard learnt it all by watching Martin. In fact the most important
track of all is "Everything’s Gone Green". If you listen to it, is the
beginning of modern music, and "Temptation" takes it one stage further.
And then Martin and New Order break up and they go off to do "Blue
Monday" as the next record, that’s the one that quiet rightly is seen as
this incredible break through, but nevertheless the important song is
"Everything’s Gone Green".
So Martin created that music and then were it not for the utter
stupidity of Alan Erasmus, Rob Gretton and Tony Wilson he would have
created the next music because he was desperate to get a Fairlight. It
was a synthesiser computer keyboard, and basically what Martin, Stephen
and Bernard were doing with soldering irons in 1980, suddenly by 1983
there was a machine that did it called a Fairlight. We had no idea what
one was, what we knew was that it cost thirty fuckin grand and we were
running the Hacienda and you could fuck off. So we used to row about
this all the time. ‘I want a Fairlight. You can’t have a Fairlight.
What’s this piece of shit you’re building? Where’s my Fairlight?’ He
never got a Fairlight, Trevor Horn got a Fairlight and the rest is
Frankie Goes To Hollywood and the rest is history. I’ve very recently
begun to claim that we created Trevor Horn, by stopping Martin getting a
fucking Fairlight. And then the big fight and they go and fall out with
each other and it’s the lawsuit and stuff, and suddenly the genius of
Erasmus and Nathan, the Mondays manager, getting him to produce the
Mondays’ Bummed album which was fantastic."
****
And yes, Bummed is a fucking fantastic album. Along with Unknown Pleasures, Technique,
the first singles from New York’s early 1980s all sister rap band ESG
and other great works of A.H. Wilson Associated. It could be said that
Mr Wilson likes the sound of his own voice. It could be said he’s
arrogant. It has been said he’s a twat. And he probably is. Who gives a
fuck? The point to Wilson apart from the usual record mogul/twat tag is
that he’s added spice and swaggering art to the British music scene,
he’s that way because of that drive to spread his gospel on what he
likes about music and culture. A question I forgot to ask him was: has
it all been down to luck? What has been his secret, if there has been
any? It will be interesting to see where Raw-T and his record label F4
end up in the grand scheme of musical things.